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Morning Joe

News/Business. Interviews with newsmakers and politicians; host Joe Scarborough. New.

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Libya 58, Gadhafi 37, Us 33, U.s. 27, Afghanistan 19, United States 16, America 14, New York 13, Syria 12, Clinton 10, Nato 9, Bowles Simpson 8, Willie 8, Spiriva 8, Tripoli 8, Pentagon 8, Eric Bates 7, Benghazi 7, Wisconsin 7, John Huntsman 7,
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  MSNBC    Morning Joe    News/Business. Interviews with newsmakers  
   and politicians; host Joe Scarborough. New.  

    March 28, 2011
    6:00 - 8:59am EDT  

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>> no, i don't think it's vital interest for the united states. but we clearly have interests there. and it's a part of the region which is a vital interest for the united states. >> i think a lot of people will hear that and say that's quite striking. not in our vital striking. >> it wouldn't be fair as to what bob just said. did libya attack us? no, they did not attack us but what they were doing and gadhafi's history and the potential for the disruption and instability was very much in our interest as bob said, and seen by our european friends and arab partners as very vital to their interests. >> and president obama will speak to the nation tonight to further explain the u.s. mission in libya. good morning, everyone. it is monday, march 28th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst mark halperin. you're going to be driving the week today. >> i will be doing some of that. >> national affairs editor for
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"new york" magazine, john heilemann and msnbc political analyst pat buchanan in the studio here this morning. i love that. >> pat in the flesh. >> you're okay after that accident. >> i hope the other people are okay. >> it doesn't sound like it. hope everyone had a good weekend. i had another trip to the e.r. what else is new? >> oh, my. >> kids. we have a lot going on today. she's fine. thanks for asking. >> you're here. >> sprained ankle. no, not me. we have a lot going on today. we talk about the president's address to the nation tonight, how the libya mission plays into the obama doctrine. i think it does. also, in the 7:00 a.m. hour we'll bring in the executive editor of "rolling stone" magazine, eric bates. "rolling stone" is out with another bombshell article on alleged crimes by the so-called u.s. kill teams in afghanistan. they're going to talk about how american soldiers allegedly
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murdered innocent civilians and mutilated their corpses and how their officers apparently failed to stop them. big story raising a lot of questions. "rolling stone" magazine, that's in our next hour. exclusive details from that article and eric bates will explain where everything goes from here on that story. but first, as i mentioned, president obama will address the nation tonight to explain what role the u.s. will play in the mission in libya and now that nato has stepped in. ahead of the speech, hillary clinton and robert gates made the rounds on the morning talk shows. gates may have added to the confusion about the libyan objective saying that u.s. involvement in the country is not a vital national interest. take a listen. >> we see our commitment of resources actually beginning to decline. >> how long does the no-fly zone last? weeks or longer? >> nobody knows the answer to that question. once the air defenses have been
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suppressed, what it takes to sustain the no-fly zone is substantially legislation than what it takes to establish it. >> secretary clinton pushed back against allegations that the president violated the constitution by failing to seek congressional approval for the intervention. >> this was an international effort that the united states was a part of. i certainly believe it was within the president's constitutional authority to do so. if you look at the region, can you imagine, david, if we were sitting here and gadhafi had gotten to benghazi and in a city of 700,000 people had massacred tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands had fled over the border, destabilizing egypt. everybody would be saying why didn't president do something? >> also on "meet the press," senator dick lugar, the senior republican on the senate foreign relations committee pressed the white house for more details on the u.s. involvement. >> i think there should have been a plan for what our objectives were, a debate as to
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why this was in our vital interests before we committed military forces to libya. it makes no sense sort of in the front room where in congress we are debating seemingly every day the deficits, the debt ceiling situation coming up. the huge economic problems we have. but in the back room, we are spending money on a military situation in libya. >> msnbc will have live coverage of the president's address to the nation tonight, that's beginning at 7:30 eastern time right here on msnbc. let's talk about this. >> so, pat, nato is going to take over the mission. that's what we're told anyway. >> right. >> it looks like gadhafi's forces are being driven back thanks to the u.n. air strikes. isn't this playing out the way the president said it would? >> it's rolling very fast. they picked up three towns over the weekend including the hometown of sirte. if the libyan forces collapse,
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the rebel army hasn't done this. the u.s. air force is doing the job. who goes in as an occupation army and occupation forces in libya? we're not going to do it ourselves. the germans can't. then you're down to the british and french. >> he said a matter of days, not weeks. has he lived up to that? >> the way it's rolling right now, it looks like it will be a matter of days. it alls on what happens in tripoli. >> john heilemann? >> i think that's right. i have sympathy for what secretary clinton said on "meet the press" over the weekend in terms of the broader debate here. it's hard for them to say what they really believe, which is this is largely a humanitarian effort, not military. that's the distinction they want to make. that's where you got into the problem of vital interest versus nonvital interest. pat does raise a relevant question. what then happens? you can achieve military success very quickly but then the longer term questions about does gadhafi go, does he stay? if he stays, what are the
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implications there? if he goes, what are the implications there in the longer term questions can be thorny for the administration. >> there are certain parameters, a promise of no u.s. troops on the ground in libya but mark halperin, i want to hear from pat on this on what we will hear from the president today. can he make the case for this, explain this to the country? and clearly, it's going to go a little bit longer potentially than first, this always happens, it's never perfect. what does he need to do? what does he need to accomplish tonight in his address to the nation? >> this president, like president bush is both -- finds it humorous and frustrating that the press wants instant results. you start this campaign, it should end in 48 hours. >> not just the press. senator lugar wants a plan, objectives. >> congress and the media will always want presidents to get instant results. this has been relatively quick and has worked pretty much so far the way the white house said
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it would. tonight the president needs to do two things, one is explain to the country why did he this. what is the obama dock tring or at least a portion of the obama doctrine that explains this intervention and update people in a way that seems authoritative. he has to strike that balance. the u.s. is not in charge of this, in theory, it's a coalition. he needs to seem like the commander in chief who's using the military in a thoughtful and purposeful way. >> the only argument they got for this intervention, it's not of vital interest to the united states, if it were we wouldn't have let gadhafi run it for 40 years. there is no answer to the question of why didn't you consult congress when you consulted the african union, the arab league and the ten little members of the security council but not the five big ones? i don't think he's got an answer to that. the key open question is, if gadhafi -- i think gadhafi has to go now. when he goes, who's going to run that place, because the rebels
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did not win this war and the rebels also have al qaeda elements clearly within them. so he's got some problems but he looks like he's frankly winning the war which is not a bad position to be in. >> and if he wins the war, do i think the question of whether he consulted congress or not will not matter that much. this is a perennial question. congress is always unhappy, presidents often act without congressional authorities in these cases, congress complains and in the end the public really doesn't care about that. if things go well militarily, the president will say we had to move quickly, this is what i needed to do, now we're going through the process of bringing congress along. >> willie? >> the white house went out of its way to say we're not going to give an address from the oval office. perhaps they didn't want to elevate this to the status of war. the setting tonight, national defense university, what do you make of that? >> i think what that says in effect is that, look, this is not an american war. this is say problem we're dealing with militarily. but i think he's really been
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forced to respond because the first strike in desert storm and the first strike in the second war against iraq, both went to 09%. when the cruise missiles hit, all of us who opposed it, you're out. the opposition quite frankly has a lot of support with the american people who are saying what in the devil is going on here? now you have a serious problem going on in syria, which is much more critical because of the relationship with iraq, israel and all the rest. >> the syrian government has de-olympiad security forces to a key northern city after a weekend of violent protests left at least 12 people dead and more than 150 wounded. that's in response to more than a week of demonstrations, which have brought scenes of anarchy to one of the middle east's most tightly controlled countries. speaking on fox news, independent senator joe lieberman said he would back u.s. action in syria.
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>> if asad does what gadhafi was doing, which is to threaten going house to house and kill anybody who's not on his side, there's a precedent that the world community has set in libya and it's the right one. we're not going to stand by and allow this asad to slaughter his people like his father did years ago. >> all right. syria's president is expected to announce tomorrow that he's lifting a nearly 50-year state of emergency and moving to annul other harsh restrictions on civil liberties and political freedoms. meanwhile, yemen's president is taking back his offer to step down by the end of the year. okay. i see that he's getting the message. what? that move comes as islamic militants are taking advantage of deteriorating security by seizing control of towns in the southern part of the country. protesters have been calling for the president's immediate ouster there and have been joined by defecting military commanders, politicians and tribal leaders. go ahead, willie.
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i have a question then. >> go back to joe lieberman. take away the fact that it was joe lieberman web never met a war he didn't like. >> come on. >> to his point, let's say libya works out the way the president said it would, does that not now mean you have to go into syria for the same humanitarian reasons. >> the same humanitarian conditions don't exist. >> what, slaughter in the streets. >> the slaughter of tens of thousands, which is what the administration is confident would have happened. >> what is the number? >> you know it when you see it. asad is unpopular with some places but you're not going to have the arab league welcoming nato and the united states into syria. it's just not going to happen. >> okay, okay, but if senator lieberman is making a point that the world community is setting a press den in the libya, let's go back, pat, then to speaker boehner's question, what is the benchmark for success in libya? when is it done? what are we trying to do?
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>> look, we're not going to put troops on the ground. >> of course what are we trying to accomplish? >> we're done when gadhafi's regime collapses. the problem is, the rebels haven't won the war and the rebels have a lot of al qaeda elements. who's going to run libya? it's a kunl of 6 million people. i think you'll have to put troops on the ground. the only two i can figure are british and french. they couldn't hand it'll in bosnia, the americans had to come in. i think we have a problem on our hands here. >> there is say bigger question, the question you're trying to get to, both of you guys, mika and willie. there is a lack of clarity, i think, right now about what the administration's policy towards the broader uprising in the middle east is and how they'll hand that'll. they've had to, because this has happened so quickly and unexpectedly, they've been making policy on the fly, from egypt and to libya. one of the things the president may or may not do tonight but people want to know, is what is our stance towards the broader democratic revolutions that look like they could be happening across the region?
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how are we going to distinguish from country to country? not just in terms of military intervention but how do we prioritize, to what extent do we get involved in all that stuff sun clear and these questions will not go away over the course of the months ahead. >> is this a reasonable time to address the nation and address these questions given the fact that this president, as many criticized him for waiting too long, clearly tried to negotiate, clearly tried to warn libyan leaders, gadhafi and all, that this was going to be a problem if he didn't step down. they waited it out. some say wait today long. and then finally moved in. i mean, you talk about making decisions on the fly, i actually think compared to other presidents, this was waited out to an extent that actually now has drawn criticism from republicans. >> i think you can nitpick what happened in egypt and libya. in general, they've been
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extremely -- >> and consistent with what this president said he was going to do. >> he's anti-u.s. lateral intervention. part of his problem is to be a mul multilatteralist at a time when a lot of americans still want america to be number one and america to leave. he doesn't want to do that. that's not his instinct on this. >> i think he is, some could argue, is he leading but there is the criticism is we're not doing it alone. do we really want to do that? do we want another afghanistan, pat buchanan? >> secretary gates is right, anybody that recommended another afghanistan ought to have his head examined. >> exactly. >> i agree. in a sense what obama is doing, look, this thing is on a tremendous role. he stayed with mubarak. mubarak was our ally for 30 years. he has moved against libya because gadhafi's a thug and everybody despises him. yemen we haven't done that well, bahrain, we basically support the saudis going in there. it's too vital because it affects a part of saudi arabia.
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overall, he's riding this rolling wave in and he's not doing -- i do think he's made a mistake by getting into this libya mess. as gates said we have no vital interest in. who knew -- there were no massacre s i massacres in ras yanuff. >> the administration's view is there would have been more instability had there not been intervention. there would have been mass slaughter and exodus over the borders. this was a way to keep thing from spiraling out of control. it's had that effect. >> and he's got international support collective action which is very different. that would be leading. >> without china, without russia. all the five biggest countries. we have 5% of the world behind us. >> i'm sorry. >> and to answer pat's question, the problem is that gadhafi announced he was going to slaughter civilians and that --
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he may not have but given that he announced it, if we then did nothing, the criticism of the president would have been so intense. >> he went out and got the support of the world community, much of it, to go in collectively. in a very short period of time. >> the egyptian army has 500,000 men. why didn't he send them across the border into benghazi and protected the people of benghazi. it would have been all over, no westerners, no nato. >> the egyptian military is kind of busy right now. >> 500,000 guys in the egyptian military and they can't take a bordertown. coming up, dick durbin will be on the set. also, jack markell. and also coming up, a look at politico's top stories out of
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washington. and a report about gibbs potential career move. and bill karins, the most hated man on earth. bill? >> enough already, mika. where's spring? it was chilly and it continues that way this morning. i'm hoping this is the coldest morning we'll see until we get to december. because it's cold. 11 is the wind chill in albany, 16 in hartford, 19 in new york. the wind chill in d.c. is 25. it snowed over the weekend in d.c. it will be sunny and just like it was this weekend. it's cold this morning. when the sun is out it will be okay. stay in the sun if possible. we also have the cold blast of air in the great lakes and northern plains. so it's much of the country that's dealing with the cold. look at the wind chills out there. 14 in chicago. we have heavy rain down there in areas of atlanta and florida. so it is what it is.
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it will be like this much of the week. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.
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michele bachmann this week threw her hat into the ring kind of. we think she's going to be running for president, for those who find sarah palin too intellectual. michele bachmann for president. as a comedian, all i have to say is, where can i donate to this cause? in bachmann and palin get into this, there's two bimbos, we
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have romney, a millionaire, we just need a skipper and a pilot. >> the supreme court will hear arguments in a gender discrimination case against walmart over pay and promotions for over a million of female employees. at issue, whether a group this large should be allowed to band together in a lawsuit. "new york times," how about this, facebook said to be in talks to hire former white house press secretary robert gibbs. this comes as facebook prepares for an initial public offering planned perhaps as early as 2012. >> good timing. >> he's reportedly consulted several, including david axelrod, about taking the job. >> the answer is yes, gibby. an egyptian cobra is on the loose at the bronx zoo. the snake got out of its cage sometime on friday and zoo
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keepers believe it's hiding in the reptile center and will eventually come out when it gets hungry. the reptile house remains closed to visitors until further notice. >> i think that's the right thing to do. on to politico now. >> now let's go to the chief white house correspondent for politico, mr. mike al within a look at the playbook. hi, mike. >> good morning, willie. happy birthday to mika's dad. >> thank you, dad. >> she knew that. >> i was all ready for it. thank god for the politico playbook. that's all i'm going to say. happy birthday, dad. it's the top line. >> we just did review your note. it was revealed someone's father had a birthday today. >> exactly. >> john huntsman, campaign for 2012 -- there's you and your dad. >> i like that. where is that? okay. happy birthday, dad. >> john huntsman, ramping up, according to you, before his resignation takes effect in
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about a month. is it bad to start running against your boss before you've left the job? >> his boss is in a difficult position. if president obama scolds him or fires him, it would help john huntsman with republican primary voters. over the next month, the people who are planning his campaign in waiting as they're calling it will be ramping up. it's up to about 25 people now, including five firms that are hoping that john huntsman will run for president and hire them. a pac called horizon pac will start giving money this month to local candidates, statewide candidates in the next week they're going to announce some personnel decisions in early states, eye was, new hampshires. there's a lost activity going on. they're saying that the ambassador hasn't formally decided but there's a fly in the ointment and that is we're told
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when president obama was in china in 2009 meeting with his ambassador that ambassador huntsman told three white house officials that he supported what the president was doing back home domestically, including health care reform. that of course is the biggest issue among republican primary voters. they hate obama care. so that's going to be a real tough issue for john huntsman to overcome. people planning their campaign, they'll say, well, when he was governor he promoted free enterprise health reform. he's where most republican and independents are. it will be a juicy issue, no question. >> we keep hearing this name, at least in d.c. circles, john huntsman, john huntsman. do we need to be thinking about this guy seriously. >> he could be a serious candidate in this campaign. he is going to be -- he has a couple of issues where he's far to the left of the republican primary electorate. not so much the things mike is talking about. he's for cap and trade, for civil unions.
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those are two big problems for him. those are a couple big problems with the republican primary electorate. it's a weak field. he has people behind him who are very smart. one of his key strategists is john weaver, who ran john mccain's campaign back in 2000. he'll run him as a maverick kind of a candidate pep has a lot of money, a strong family fortune to draw off of, his own fortune. he could be a serious player coming in, trying to sneak in from the left if the rest of the field is fractured. >> halperin, is the obama relationship a major problem for him or will voters forget about that? >> i think it's a press obsession that won't make a difference. he could walk in here now and probably not be recognized by some of the people in the room. >> willie -- >> mike allen, thank you. >> have a good week. >> sneaking in from the left is not the way to win the republican nomination. >> your friend john mccain did that. >> he's a little bit more of a centrist and war hero.
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he has a reputation on the left, he is very rich. his dad worked in nixon's white house, big coin. >> i've been watching him for a year, i think he'll be a story. andrew ross sorkin has reported on this. front page. >> that's bcu, right? >> yes. >> full highlights coming newspaper sports. later, we'll explain what's going on in these photos. mayor bloomberg adds super hero to his resume. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.
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live shot of capitol hill. welcome back to "morning joe" at 1 past the hour, a quick look at the news. there are new radiation concerns in japan this morning as the country's nuclear crisis stretches into its third week. officials said today that highly radioactive iodine seeping from the fukushima nuclear complex may be making its way into sea
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water farther north of the plan the than previously thought. in addition, mounting obstacles have behind derd efforts to bring the facility back from the edge of disaster. meanwhile, radiation from japan appears to have reached as far as the u.s. east coast. one sample of massachusetts rain water registered very low concentration of radiation but officials say it does not pose a health risk. congress returns from recess today prepared to take up the federal budget in spending issues. according to this morning's "wall street journal," the white house, democratic lawmakers are assembling for a proposal for roughly $20 billion in additional spending cuts that could soon be offered to republicans. that would come on top of $10 billion in cuts that congress has already enacted. however, it is not clear if it would be enough to satisfy republicans who initially sought more than $60 billion in cuts. right now, congress is fashion the threat of a government shutdown next friday.
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and new york governor andrew cuomo has struck a tentative budget deal with legislative leaders that he's touting as historicic for its spending cuts as well as its timeliness. >> the state passed a budget. you would say that's no big deal, except it is. it is a big deal when this state passes a budget on time. it's an exceptionally big deal when the state passes the budget on time under these circumstances. because this was a very, very hard budget to do. >> front page of the "daily news" and "the new york post," hammer time, governor's budget deal. pigs fly. that's pretty good. it would reduce state spending by more than 2%, would also address a $10 billion deficit without raising taxes or borrowing money. the plan now has to be finalized by legislatures this week in time to meet a friday deadline when the state's fiscal year
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begins. later on the show, we have "new york" magazine's chris smith who has a story about cuomo in the next issue. check out yesterday's in the this the editorial about how the cuts aeffect different school systems across the state. poorer schools getting hit harder. that's one of the different layers of this that should be noted and perhaps rectified. >> mayor bloomberg is rip something of the cuts. >> it's tough. let's turn to sports. commonwealth university out of richmond, virginia squeezed its way into the tournament. they are now in the final four. they took on kansas on sunday, playing loose and confident. brandon rosell pulls up four a three. bcu leading 41-27 at the half. second half, the jayhawks settled down a little bit. terrell reeves' three-pointer rims out.
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putback, kansas down six with four minutes to go. big play here now with the shot clock winding down. joey rodriguez, the point guard, lobs it up to bradford burgess, just as the clock expired. that's a game clincher, folks. bcu upsets kansas, 71-61 and advances to the final four. they had to play a play-in game essentially just to get into the field of 64. rams' coach and rising college coaching star, 33-year-old smart talked about proving the doubters wrong. >> the guys have done a phenomenal job of putting the doubters aside, putting all the people that didn't believe in us aside and going out and doing their job. today they did their job to the tune of a ten-point victory over i think the team that was on paper, the best team left in the ncaa tournament. we weren't 35-2 coming into this
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game but we're playing our best basketball when it matters most. that's why i'm sitting up here right now with a net around my neck. >> 11 seeded bcu is in the final four. that man is getting a lot of calls this morning for job offers. the late afternoon game, a heavyweight showdown between north carolina and kentucky. six-point game right before half. a big defensive play by kentucky's josh harrelson. big block, terrence jones going the other way. hoop and the foul. kentucky was up eight points at the break. north carolina did come back in the second half. harrison barnes, the great freshman. watch this move, up, under, left-handed layup. less than five to go. tyler zeller with a big block. barnes comes up with the ball. goes the other way, layup and thfol, carin dnju tw le tn mite t o. keuc w u o in th's bk ear. liggins hits a corner three that seals the game. kentucky believe it or not has not been to the final four since
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1998. their first trip back, that's a year they won the national title. here's your final four, four seed kentucky will get kemba walker and three seeded uconn and on the other side, 11 seeded vcu plays 8 seeded butler. >> i did see your predictions on pbs, willie. >> don't bring that up. >> i went from duke to ohio state and then -- >> moving from one to the other. >> jumping around to the one seeds. i don't have any left now. >> that's the last time i let tim carter do my brackets. >> it's hard to fault tim carter. >> what good are you tim carter. >> anyone in the country have this fal four? >> espn have millions of people. i don't think they have anyone with this. how could you? >> an 8 and 11 seed in the final four? not very likely. when when come back, the political stories driving the week. ahead at 7:00, we talk to
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the "rolling stone" executive editor, eric bates, on a piece this morning on alleged crimes by the so-called u.s. kill team in afghanistan. keep it on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this...is the network. a living, breathing intelligence that's helping business rethink how to do business. in here, machines tell factories when they're thirsty.
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repentant mattered. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 41 past the hour. we can tk about this, chris says, i just don't want to. anybody want to talk about that? nope. all right. time for our weekly segment, driving the week where mark halperin gives us his top political stories to watch for in the week ahead. the president addressing the nation tonight on the issue of libya. that is your number one story. libya's civil war. >> no question. the president's speech tonight and then later in the week we have secretary gates, clinton going up to capitol hill and talking about what's beginning on with the war. obviously when the speech was announced on friday, things changed already. they changed again over the weekend. militarily on the ground, the president is in a stronger position, the nato handoff taking place. he still has to explain himself. this could be a turning point in the history of this administration. it could also be a blip. if things continue to go well, we could have relatively peaceful transition. >> amid the criticism, though,
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of his handling of libya, it is consistent with who he said he was going to be as president, is it not? >> it's absolutely consistent with his world view as he projected it during the campaign. this is a coalition he built to some extent but also came to him. the arab league, the united nations, that did not require a lot of heavy lifting. this is something the world wanted done. thiscy moodle for how the president would like to operate. >> your second story of the week. >> libya is overshadowing jordan and syria, no friend of the united states, both leaders in both those countries trying to deal with this call for freedom, both engaged in more violence than they had before. and now, these are tougher choices for the u.s. in many ways. and there's diplomacy going on, because military intervention in these countries is just not possible. >> pat, mark says these are tougher choices for the u.s. are there clear differences between countries like syria and
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libya that people will understand there isn't a double standard? i think the issue of a double standard is a big question. >> you do libya because it's doable. it's all along the coast, you have a country of 6 million people. you had the potential of a massacre and it could be done. syria say big country. you have real problems in yemen. bahrain is being taken care of s by the saudis. we have one standard where we're for freedom and democracy at the same time, we support our friends and punish our enemies. it's a combined policy, a lot of cynicism in it. that's the way the world works. >> you have the vice president on the phone with a leader in bahrain over the weekend. there's strong urgings of even allies to say you must change because you have to get out of the way. >> that's after 2,000 saudi troops came in to put down the demonstrations. that's a majority of shiite
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country. quite frankly, the saudis are terrified of shiite rebellion. i will say this for the saudis, they act in their national interest, forget this democracy. they supported mubarak all the way to the end. they'd be prepared to bring him in and they support their sunni allies. >> i forget who was saying it earlier but if libya is an example for the world community, then aren't we going to be held to live up to that example if these other countries bubble over in a similar way? >> if the level of violence and threat of loss of human life is as high, i think the u.s. would act. >> the united states doesn't go, nobody goes. if we hadn't gone into libya, nobody would have gone into libya. this is an american act. >> but the game changer this time around is that others did join us. do you not agree with that, pat? >> they want us desperately to go in, the british and french were ahead of us. if we don't go, nobody goes. >> third story driving the week, mark halperin. deficit politics you say on the
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edge. t. is in danger of falling apart. we have a bunch of stuff that needs to get done, short-term continuing resolutions, the debt ceiling and next year's budget and attempt to reach a big budget deal. all these things hinge off getting through the next toll gate, which is now a new threat of a government shutdown. >> how many have we made, threats of a government shutdown. >> we're through 2 1/2. >> when does it get silly t. never gets silly. >> when does is it get ridiculous. >> no one is ready to make the big deal. this week it could collapse or it would take the president involved to keep it going. >> i'm not sure the republicans want to avoid a short shutdown. that would at least point out who's on the side of budget cuts, who's on the side of greater spending. i think the democrats would like to avoid that. i think they'll give them something. if i were the republicans, i mean, especially boehner and those guys, they have the tea party on their right. if they give up for some phony deal and settle this thing, i
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think they have problems where you can't go home again. >> every deal is phony until they deal with entitlements. it's all a waste of time and preamble to people biting the bullet on real spending. >> our friends down at politico, points out, if you look around the country where the republican governors are making tough budget choices, all their poll numbers are plummeting across the country. you think there will be vulnerable republicans in the house looking around at governors like casic and chris christie and walker and saying, this might be the right thing to do in terms of policy. >> but look at cuomo. he's gone the republican route. that guy in illinois is not. he's down, too. everybody is down. all the politicians are hurting. i think the republicans' problem is they have this group on their right that wants them to fight. if they don't and they lose the tea party, that's their indispensable element which together with the main republican party gives them a
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shot. >> the tea party needs to be ready to cut medicare, medicaid, social security and raise taxes. >> they're willing to do it. >> and the die fence budget, don't forget that. >> are they ready to stand by the cuts they put out there? >> it should be more than the number they already have, correct. >> it's the biggest question in american politics today and has implications for the next presidential race and the president's place in history. >> those are mark's top three stories driving the week. go to joe.msnbc.com for mark's full list. at 7:45 eastern time, mark will be doing a live web tsao chat. go to the website to submit a question for mark. keep it clean, please. last week he was very upset. what do you have coming up next? >> coming up next, news you can't use. senator john mccain responds to the casting of the "game change" movie. ed harris as john mccain. we'll see what senator mccain thinks. see what halperin and heilemann think. >> an evening news cast out of libya. >> what's that?
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>> anchors are carrying ak-47s. >> that's not an anchor. >> keep it here on "morning joe." >> oh, good lord. ♪ [ male announcer ] america's beverage companies are working together to put more information right up front.
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tell me it's time. >> better when you're right here. >> in your ear. >> i have an update for you, mark halperin. i got an e-mail from john walsh from espn. a.9 million brackets put in at espn.com. two people got it right. two people in this country had ours had vcu playing butler. >> i hope those guys have money on those brackets. >> i don't think they did. let's do a little game change news. the casting continues. >> am i in the movie? >> i was hoping. >> ed harris will be cast as john mccain. do we have the side by side? >> no, not that one. sarah palin and jewulianne moor. >> interesting. >> john mccain was asked about the costing yesterday. >> he's a very fine actor and great actor. i obviously haven't head the book. i will not be watching the film.
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i've been made aware of the depiction of me. it is what it is. >> i think this movie will ab mazing. >> when hbo and all the incredibly talented people produce the final product, i think senator mccain will have a change of heart. >> when are they going to call me? i want to be in it. >> he's for the casting. he said he's a fine actor and a great actor. >> he's terrific. you have any say over who gets into the show? >> are you trying to get in it, too? >> pat wants to know who to call. >> i want a walk-on. >> what do you want to play? >> i want a walk-on as myself. >> we're thinking about putting pat in as david gregory. >> a lot of people want to know how much input, if any, do you have in getting these roles? we defer to the great minds at hbo. do they ask you, we're thinking about ed harris, you say? >> we say, you know what you're doing. they've shown over and over
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again. >> then you check your bank account. >> did you all clear the script or look at the script for the movie? >> we were involved. >> what is this spin? >> we could. but you saiderier you were a sportscaster and now you were an actress? >> yes and yes. yes. which is why i could do sports, because i was an actress. >> there's one other one, woody harrelson as steve schmitz. >> i like it. >> woody will have to shave the head. >> he'll become very grumpy. >> he has a pretty receding hairline there. >> you wonder why we refer to them? things like that, sheer genius. >> all three announced casting academy award nominees. 3 for 3. >> you don't like answering questions, do you. >> we don't know anything.
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they haven't set an air date yet. >> they'll need to talk to us. let's talk about libyan state television. >> why not. >> shall we? people complain some of the networks in our country are partisan, maybe take sides. at least the anchors aren't carrying weapons on the air. >> what the -- >> this is a libyan state television broadcaster over the weekend. the anker there imploring the viewers to take up arms and side with colonel gadhafi, saying in i don't know what you'd call it, perhaps an essay at the end. they put up his name in cursive as they were speaking. this is my message to the traitors wherever they are, i will defy you. libyan state television. how do you like that? >> good outfit, too. mayor michael bloomberg of new york city, we have him in a costume, dressed up as spider-man. it's an annual charity event, inner circle. dressing up in a variety of
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costumes spanning his life in new york, his career as mayor. but the best part, of course, when he was spider-man he got stuck up on the stage. a nod to the troubles they're having over there at the theeter. >> all in fun. >> all in good fun. up next, "rolling stone" magazine's executive editor, eric bates on the stunning article involving u.s. kill teams in afghanistan. that's next on "morning joe."
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the question hasn't yet been answered as to why it is that libya of all countries in that region has won the humanitarian defense sweepstakes of 2011. we have seen many countries both in that region and throughout the world where civilian loss and suffering has been much, much greater. why libya? hasn't been answered. >> do you think -- >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is the top of the hour. mark halperin and pat buchanan are still with us. in just a few minutes we'll have a live report from nbc news' richard engel. he's in benghazi. we'll get the latest on the offensive there, the latest on libya, rebels headed toward tripoli at this point. richard will give us a live report on that. also, the president will ab dressing the nation at 7:30 tonight from the national war college to explain our role in libya among other things.
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we'll be talking much more about the latest there in just a moment. joining the table we have the executive editor of "rolling stone" magazine, eric bates. and "rolling stone" is out with a hard-hitting new article on their website this morning on alleged crimes by the so-called u.s. kill teams in afghanistan. it's a very difficult subject that you may not want kids to hear about. so we'll start there. we're waiting to hear from richard engel and when we get to him, we'll go right to him. first, let's talk about this article. i want to lay it out carefully here. "rolling stone" magazine has another very, very big article, breaking news about these kill teams that murdered innocent civilians, mutilated their corpses and how some officers failed to stop them. first of all, who wrote this article? and what is this reporter's background? >> the article is by mark bowle, best known for winning the academy award last year for
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writing the screenplay of "the hurt locker." he's an experienced journalist and has written for others and us for years. >> i have parts of the article that we're going to read that are very difficult. and, again, probably not for kids. >> right. >> what is this article basically saying happened in afghanistan with these innocent civilians? >> there were a dozen soldiers who are being charged with various crimes relate together murder of three afghan civilians. these were soldiers who basically went out, picked unarmed civilians and targeted them for execution, killed them in, in some cases mutilated their corpses, cut off parts of their body, pinky fingers, kept them for trophies. what we found that was disturbing is the crimes may go higher and wider than the pentagon has so far acknowledged. noifr oz have been charged yet in these crimes. as far as we know, none have been disciplined or held
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accountable in any way. we obtained some of the photos that the soldiers took of themselves and their victims. some of the photos seem continue kate there may be other crimes involving other platoons that haven't been charged yet. that's what's most disturbing about it and that's why we decided to publish some of the photographs because it looks like there may be crimes that haven't been prosecuted yet. >> i was going to read this. i don't think i'm going to. willie, take it. i am going to talk to chris a little bit about whether we do this. >> take one setback. what is a kill team? that's not a term the pentagon uses. >> this is say term the soldiers themselves use. they talk amongst themselves for months about killing civilians. what's really disturbing here is this wasn't a one-time massacre. this was more or less a shooting spree that went on over the course of four months where time after time they went out, picked civilians, they killed them in a couple of cases, they shot at people in fields and missed.
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so this was really kind of a coordinated campaign among these soldiers and it was a situation as best we can tell, there's a lot of indication that the officers had that something was going on. we don't necessarily think the officers knew what was happening per se. but in the very first kill that they did, they executed a 15-year-old boy who was out in a field farming. the next day, 20 villagers descended on the base, demanding an investigation. very high levels in this battalion knew that something was going on and yet, this group of soldiers was allowed to continue killing for zbloz how far up the chain of command do you think knowledge went of what was going on and how far up the chain of command did the cover-up go or a cover-up go once the knowledge came to light? >> that's exactly the right question. that's the question that really the pentagon and only the pentagon is in a position to answer. we can't tell but we do know that at least up to the top of
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the brigade level they knew there were protests among the villagers saying that civilians had been executed on at least two different occasions. and they didn't do anything about it. >> what do you know about the motives of these people and their mental health? >> well, some of them in their defense are claiming drug use, claiming that they were imbalanced. they're trying to pin it on a squad leader, saying he was the ring leader. we found there was a lot of frustration in this unit. they were out on the front line, they were supposed to be engaging the taliban and they couldn't find the taliban. the taliban was striking them with roadside bombs. they had high casualty levels. i think they had gotten to the point where there was a combat environment where there was a hatred of all afghan people. one of the soldiers said in his testimony to the army, everybody would say they're savages. everybody in the unit hated the afghans. the afghan national police, the afghan army, our allies. they developed this hatred of the very people they were there
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to defend. >> what has -- how did "rolling stone" get this information first of all? and what has the response been? has there been a denial of murder, a denial of mutilation of corpses? this excerpt just of what happened to the 15-year-old boy, i don't think i can read. i think people can find it in "rolling stone" but it is horrific what this article is alleging. >> we obtained the army's investigative files and we obtained 150 or so of the 4,000 photographs that these soldiers took and collected and passed around as war souvenirs. there's not a denial in the sense that some of the individual soldiers are protesting and saying they're innocent. there are 12 soldiers facing charges. one of them that killed the 15-year-old boy was convicted of three counts of murder last thursday. he pled for a lesser sentence of 24 years in order to testify against the platoon leader who they're trying to pin it on. the military has said basically that -- acknowledged that it's
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happened. they're prosecuting 12 of the soldiers. the question is is it going high enough? >> and in the piece, eric, you say then general stanley mcchrystal was briefed on this last may. we just saw these under spiegel last week and in your magazine now. >> that's right. >> what were the efforts if any by the pentagon to erase these files, keep them under wraps? >> the pentagon launched a massive effort to keep anyone from seeing these photographs. they knew they had another potential abu ghraib on their hand. they sent agents to confiscate hard drives and visit photos and keep them under wraps. in the ceiling order, they were placed under a court sealing order. the rationale was to make sure the trials wouldn't ab effected. in the sealing order they mentioned this would negatively impact the reputation of the
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military. they were very, very concerned about how this would reflect on u.s. troops and whether it would promote more hostility in afghanistan. >> were the civilians and the pentagon made aware that these 4,000 photos were floating around the internet out there in the united states and did they authorize picking up these photos and confiscating them and getting rid of them. >> as far as we can tell, yes. this is widely known in the pentagon. it's been reported for months that the photos existed. no one had seen them. everybody knew they were there. >> the concern about this negatively impacting the reputation of the military is an obvious one. what about if the information isn't transparent, that there is a message that this type of behavior is condoned. how do you -- how does the reporting of this end up really having an impact if there is an attempt to kind of put it away? >> that was our real concern. in a couple of the photographs that we saw, we have a source that told us there were two men
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tide up by the side of the road after they were dead, a sign placed around their neck, saying taliban are dead. we have a source that tells us that was an entirely different unit that did that and said that's their standard operating procedure. they like to tie up bodies and prop them up aside of the road after they kill them. those bodies may in fact have been insurgents or taliban. the displaying of the corpses in that manner was clearly a crime. when we spoke to the pentagon they basically shrugged their shoulders and said after almost a year of having these photographs said we don't have any way of knowing who those men are or how they died. >> this was clearly a rogue unit. were these fellows, this is their first tour of duty or second or third tour of duty. >> good question. >> and have you picked up thinking that said -- most americans won't believe that other american soldiers were engaged. they are going to believe this was a complete rogue unit. did you find out any measure --
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not of collusion but replication of what they were doing by other units? >> and how many tours of duty do these -- >> they're all over the map. the squad leader was a decorated veteran from iraq. apparently involved in some incidents that there that were fairly questionable. jeremy warlock, the specialist just convicted, it was his first tour. he was really a case where he maybe shouldn't have been in the field to begin with. the month before he deployed to afghanistan he was charged with disorderly conduct after allegedly burning his wife with a cigarette. so you have a real lowering of standards who have's in the military because the military has been desperate for troops while it's been fighting two wars simultaneously. but there is evidence that these soldiers, what was particularly disturbing is they bragged openly about what they were doing. it was an open secret, not just among their unit but other units. platt toon had a reputation for staging killings and other yints knew about it. so that's what's most distu
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disturbing. in one case, particularly disturbing case, after they killed a 15-year-old boy, a few nights later they were playing poker and threw the boy's finger in as a bet. there were other soldiers around and a female medic who hadn't had anything to do with the killing. it was an atmosphere in which everybody was seen as the enemy, really. all afghan people were seen as the enemy. >> mark, what can be the impact of pictures like these? we know what the photographs from abu great britaghraib what were doing in iraq. what is the power of a story like this? >> the power will be greater in afghanistan than it is here. the notion of winning over the hearts and minds of the afghan people seen as an occupying force in the wake of pictures like it and story like this, it makes what was very, very, very
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hard impossible. >> this goes back to me, 1968 under lyndon johnson. it broke in '69 when we were in the white house. devastating impact. veterans of world war ii were sickened by it. they told me they couldn't believe american soldiers could do that. i think it's going to be a hellish blow on the people in afghanistan. people are going to say, just get out of that place. >> it is a huge question being raised, given the fact we've been in afghanistan so long that people are really beginning to grow tired of the amount of blood and everything else that we are sacrificing for a war that we don't understand. having said that, i don't know if it's worse but it potentially is just as bad. what you report happening, the fact that there was a reputation around that this unit had and nothing was said might be equally as frightening. we're going to talk more about this. i want to hear more about the response from the government from our military and how far up
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this went. coming up. we have to now get to our other headline, which is libya. i believe we have richard engel. rebel forces are continuing to push back forces loyal to gadhafi. opposition spokesman now claims that rebels captured gadhafi's hometown of sirte. the development would be a significant victory for the movement. meantime, defense secretary robert gates may have added to the confusion about the libyan objective when he acknowledged that the country is not a clear threat to american national security interests. >> secretary gates, is libya in our vital interest as a country? >> no, i don't think it's a vital interest for the united states. but we clearly have interest there and it's part of the region which is of vital interest for the united states. >> a lot of people would hear that and say it's not quite striking, not in our milary interest. >> did libya attack us? no. they did not attack us but what they were doing and gadhafi's
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history and the potential for the disruption and instability was very much in our interest as bob said, and seen by our european friends and our arab partners as very vital to their interests. >> all right. joining us now from benghazi, libya, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, i take it some headway has been made overnight. what's the late theft? . >> reporter: more than just some headway. over the last 48 hours or so, the rebels have made incredible advances. but i wouldn't describe it solely as a rebel charge toward the west. it has been greatly assisted, handed to them on a platter if you will. we were driving yesterday for the several hundred miles that the rebels have managed to move their front line forward and we saw just how much devastation the western air strikes have caused. dozens of armored vehicles belonging to gadhafi's forces that are now just complete
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obliterad by the roadside. rebels have simp gotten in their cars and are driving toward tripoli and they're meeting no resistance as they go. town to town, hoisting their flags, honking their horns. they have reached the outskirts of sirte and fighting is ongoing in sirte, we are told. that is a very significant town. sirte is closer to tripoli. it is gadhafi's hometown. it also has a military base. if the rebels were able to take sirte, then it wouldn't be a big leap for them to push right to the door step of tripoli. gadhafi's forces could be holding out for a final stand in sirte. and that battle could prove to be one of the most decisive in this conflict so far. >> willie? >> it's willie. the president here, president of the united states, has gone out of his way to let people know that the united states is not in the business of taking out moammar gadhafi and if it happens it should come internally from the opposition
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and rebel groups. is it your sense that this group, the opposition we're backing is armed and prepared to take out moammar gadhafi? >> well, when they have this much help, they are. when they didn't have western air strikes they were not. this rebel movement was almost completely defeated with gadhafi's tanks starting to enter benghazi where i am right now. now after almost two weeks of western air strikes, the rebels are driving through cleared territory and are approaching sirte. the rebels say they need a few more weeks. don't stop now, the rebels say. they have the momentum in their favor. two more weeks and they think they can get to tripoli. >> pat buchanan. >> there say dank fehr there is a long sustained bat until sirte, that the rebels could lose momentum again. >> richard, pat buchanan here. give us the magnitude of the forces the rebels have amassed that are marching on sirte. i mean, is this in the hundreds
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or thousands or the tens of thousands? how large an army do they have? because they're talking about some of these cities are 700,000 people. >> it is a very impromptu force. they don't have specific battalions or platoons. people just show up and the numbers are big. i would certainly say thousands. thousands of armed people that are driving in the direction of sirte right now. manufacture them are civilians. they'll pick up a gun for a day. they'll go out to the front line, go back to their jobs the next day. the more they gain momentum, the more people are joining the cause. they're not particularly well armed. they have mostly assault rifles. but as they're getting so much help from these air strikes and they see that all they have to do is get there, take a gun, get
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in a car and they can advance territory, that is encouraging many people and encouraging more people to join. >> this encouraging news, of course, the framework for the president's address to the nation tonight at 7:30 eastern time. nbc's richard engel live from benghazi. thank you very much. tomorrow, we'll sit down with nbc's tom brokaw, radio host and author bill bennett and presidential hopeful tim pawlenty. first, how one governor brought the unions to the table. jack markell will join us, next. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. that powered the alarm clocks and brewed the coffee. we heated the bathwater and gave kelly a cleaner ride to school. cooked the cube steaks and steamed the veggies. entertained dad, and mom, and a neighbor or two. kept watch on the house when they slept. and tomorrow we could do even more. we're cleaner, domestic, abundant and ready now.
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you gave people the citizenship test people have to take if they want to become a citizen. 38% failed outright. if people fail a test, make the people smarter or make the test easier. i think we have to make the test easier. this is america. we dumb things down. so we have come up with a new
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test that i think will be much better for the people. question one, name the king of beers. number two, our government is composed of three branches. name something else that has branches. it can be found both on the liberty bell and in whitney houston's purse. finally, what blood type is charlie sheen? bear, llama, rhinoceros or tiger? >> welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, the democratic governor of delaware. governor jack markell. good to have you on board this morning. i've been hearing about you. >> we had folks from delaware getting a tour. they said you need to have our governor in. you should see what he's doing. >> they're great people in retirement. >> you reached a consensus last week. everyone thinks wisconsin when they hear something like that. how do the trims that you guys agreed on last week compare to the ones in wisconsin?
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were they as severe? >> i don't think they were quite as severe but they were very meaningful. we've been through protests in delaware. a couple years ago when i took office, we had a huge shortfall. i proposed a pay cut. we had several times well over 1,000 state employees protesting, holding up imimpeachment signs against me but we got it through. i think we've learned a little bit over the last couple years. i proposed a trim last year in pension and health care and my proposal didn't go anywhere. so i stepped back, took a look at myself and said what can i do better? and part of the issue, i didn't really explain it so well last year. it was so obvious to me we had to do something, i thought it should be obvious to everybody else. >> what did you do to get a deal done this year? >> i brought the unions together just before christmas and laid it out for them. i basically put together a powerpoint, laid out the magnitude of the problem, showed how it was not sustainable and had a conversation with them. i said if you all recognize that
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there's an issue to be resolved and you want to be part of the solution, i'm happy to have the conversation with you. i'm not really interested in debate about whether there's a problem. because there is a problem. they said that they were willing to have that series of conversations. we did and now i expect the legislature will approve it. >> you have state employees to pay in a little more on health care and also on the pensions. they did that, though, in wisconsin as well. the question there was over collective bargaining. did you run into any of that. >> absolutely not. did not try to take collective bargaining away. i said in fact, i wrote a piece in politico where i said i'm not the likeliest person to speak up on behalf of the protesters in wisconsin. hi the unions protest against me, literally thousands holding imimpeachment signs in delaware. my job would be easier if we got rid of collective bargaining but my job is to tnot to make my jo easier. i spend so much time with the state employees, the nurses, at
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tendantses in the hospitals who are caring for the most vulnerable, the truck drivers, the guys plowing the snow in the middle of the night when the rest of us are sleeping. these people have difficult jobs and we value them. >> that, governor, with all due respect is easy to say. it just rolls off the tongue because it sounds so good to everybody. the bottom line is, what scott walker did, though very unpopular in wisconsin to those who showed up protesting, is what i believe mitch daniels did and has worked. he made his job easier, so maybe cldol pbls a bierway. ifou cs e nhdep, ifou trims are not as big as the ones in wisconsin and you don't have the right to make more moves to balance the budget and fix the state's fiscal situation in the future, what are you really getting done? >> first of all, i set a target of $100 million over the five years. we're a small state. that's a meaningful number for us in terms of saving.
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we're going to hit that target. what people are really focused on are less about the budget. we have to be fiscally responsible and manage the budget well. we have a aaa rating. we're one of the few states that does have a aaa rating. what we're focused on is making sure we're putting more people back to work. in the long run, that's the best way to fix our state. we have to be fiscally responsible. we have to take care of the folks most vulnerable in our state. what we have to do is improve the economic climate. that's what i try to do every single day. >> pat? >> the corporate capital of america is in delaware. you have a lot of corporations located there. >> and you're a company guy. >> how do you think your party is doing at the national level where president obama is presiding over a $1.65 trillion deficit and they're arguing about cuts of 4 billion here and 6 billion there. do you think we'll solve this problem or go over the clip with it? >> i think we've certainly got a long way to go. i think, obviously, a lot of
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what president obama is dealing with he inherited but that's another conversation. but i think we have just not been very well served at the national level by the false choices in this political debate. we certainly weren't well served during the 2010 election. >> how long have you served as governor. >> two years. >> you inherited your state's problems? >> yes, we're dealing with them. i believe they're dealing with them. i can tell you from a state's perspective we are awfully fortunate that we had for the last couple years the money to help balance our budge fret federal stimulus. >> you have state employees generally get higher per capita income than the average individual in the state. federal government employees i think it's virtually pay and benefits are double what the folks get in the private economy. isn't that the place where they'll have to make the sacrifices if you're going to bring the budgets into balance? >> i think at the federal level over the long term they'll certainly have to deal with some of the entitlements. pension and health care at a
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state level is like entitlements at the federal level, medicaid, medicare, social security. i think from the simpson bowles came out with is real. that will be have to be addre addressed. we hear too much about the excessive executive compensation, about the corporate evil-doing. on the other side all the we hear about, if you just lower taxes that is what it will take to build the economy. >> neither are changing a lot. >> are you a supporter of the administration's policy on afghanistan? >> i spend plenty of time trying to focus on what's going on in delaware. i don't have a well developed opinion on what's going on in afghanistan. i will say this, i think long run what we have to focus on is building our country here at home. that has got to be the focus. we are spending so much money overseas, i'm hoping we can reduce that soon and invest -- >> makes you the leader of the anti-war movement.
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>> come home, america. >> delaware governor jack markell. nice to meet you. >> thank you. coming up, what do democrats expect from the president's address on libya tonight? we'll talk to the senator from his tomorrow state, dick durbin. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ sneezes ] allergies?
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34 past the hour. live look at the white house. where folks are up and working hard this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." a quick look at the news. we haven't gotten to this story yet. among the international community there is growing outrage this morning over the unknown whereabouts of a woman who has become the public face of libyan oppression. she was arrested over the weekend after storming into a tripoli hotel full of foreign journalists and making public accusations of being tortured and gang raped by gadhafi's militiamen. as she tried to talk, security officials and a group of people who had appeared to be hotel workers raced to silence her, at one point even trying to place a
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coat over her head. she was ultimately dragged, screaming from the hotel and driven away. her story so far has not been independently verified. this morning, government officials are claiming the woman is safe, free and with her family. but it provided no proof to back that up. a libyan spokesman also says four men have been arrested, in addition, authorities are attacking her character and credibility saying she is a single mother and prostitute with a long criminal record. however, in an interview her parents reportedly say she is in fact a lawyer who is not mentally unstable in any way and claimed she's been kidnapped. they say that they were offered a new home and money if they could get their daughter to change her story. a sense of just how chaotic the situation is there. even as we move forward, along with nato -- >> a number of correspondents, i think, who tried to help her
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were beaten up, i believe. it raises the whole question with this whole thing seemingly collapsing as rapidly as it does, how safe are these correspondents going to be if there's real chaos in the capital of tripoli? >> i mean, there is no sign of where she is this morning. which is just frightening. on a number of levels. what do you make of this story, eric bates? i know it's very limited in terms of information but it kind of gives you a sense of what we're dealing with as we move in yet again on a third muslim country. this time collectively but still, moving in yet again. >> we don't have a lost information but what we do know is that this is a pattern that we see in a lot of these countries. it's directly related to why you're having these uprisings. people have lived under very oppressive conditions and regimes for years and they're rigz up. they're tired of it. and the question is, for us, are we picking and choosing -- >> right. >> -- which of those repressive
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regimes we're fighting and which we're supporting. >> the awakening is not simple in the arab world. it's not simple. in egypt, it's not perfect what's happening there as they work to try and create a democracy. they've got a long way to go and this, i mean, pat -- >> they don't have any -- look at the 77% of the vote was won by the muslim brotherhood. and basically mubarak's party. and the pro-democracy forces got about a fourth of the vote, you know, and so you wonder what's going to come next. if they have not had any tradition after democratic rule and the institutions aren't there at all in libya, gadhafi wiped everything out. i think you wind up with europeans coming in and taking over and frankly, you can't be the germans and italians, it won't be us, so it's the british and french.
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>> there are many, it's mostly republicans but they're asking for a plan, clear objectives, they're asking for backup plans if it doesn't work. i would say these are probably legitimate asks. to an extent. because we are now engaging again. we may not be putting troops on the ground but we're putting our -- >> you heard richard say they got a bunch of guys picking up guns walking in one town after another, gadhafi's forces are disintegrating, the cities are falling. who rises up to power in there? we do know al qaeda is heavily in eastern libya. these guys are organized just like the muslim brotherhood is organized. the organized guys usually come out on top. >> we'll be looking for more clarity tonight. the president will be addressing the nation from the national war college at 7:30 eastern time to talk about our role in the libya situation. eric bates, executive editor of "rolling stone" magazine with this incredible, explosive article, really, on the
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afghanistan kill teams. claims of murders of innocent civilians and having their corpses mutilated and how that happened, why it happened and how widespread is might be. all those questions raised and some answered in your article. check out "rolling stone's" website for much more. coming up, governor andrew cuomo announces new york's first on-time budge net five years. why one author is calling cuomo's first 100 days stealth genius. but first, another stealth genius, senator dick durbin joins us on the set. we'll be right back with more "morning joe."
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she was everything that now the commentators will say, an
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icon, a legend. she was down to earth, she was just as personal a friend as you could have. she was one of my fiercest defenders and staunch supporters. she had a great family that she cherished and stood up for in every way. and she went before many women to a political height that is very difficult still. she navigated it with great grace and grit. and i think we owe her a lot. i'll think about her every day. >> secretary of state hillary clinton talking about the life and legacy of geraldism ne ferraro, the first woman vice presidential candidate.
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in studio with us, dick durbin. good to have you. >> good to be here. >> we have to talk about the budget. another government shutdown is looming. what are we, five days away from it potentially? >> two weeks. >> how many potential government shutdowns can we have before either side deals with the budget realistically and takes on entitlements? dg spending plan for the rest o the year. we're not going to solve the budget deficit in six or seven months. if we try, we're going to do some awful things. what we're t years. it's based on the bowles simpson commission which i served on. >> will we use some of the deficit commission's ideas? >> absolutely. >> it is really the template, although things have changed a little bit.
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the decision to extend the tax breaks was different than bowles simpson assumed. >> senator, you know and everyone watching knows at this point that unless you talk about entitlements, unless you talk about medicare and social security, you're not having a serious conversation about the budget. when do those conversations happen? is it feasible politically? have you weighed after the presidential election, because the president doesn't want to go there politically? when do we talk about those things? >> it's difficult when you get into the entitlements. you can't have a serious conversation about the future of our economy and deficit without putting everything on the table. the social security is a little different. it is z not add a penny to the deficit. long term it only lasts until 2037. i don't think there's another government program you can guarantee for 25 years. you can do that with social security. bowles simpson said let's look behind it and see if there's another 75 years of solvency.
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bowles simpson said if you don't put everything on the table you'll end up in the mess that we're ending up today where we're trying to make dramatic cuts in 12% of the budget. the domestic discretionary budget. >> which is ridiculous. >> it's crazy. >> mark halperin is driving the week talking to folks on the web. he can ask his question from there. what's your question for the senator. >> you're sitting working in a bipartisan way with senator coburn and others, including in the talks medicare, medicaid and social security. how can you ask republicans to negotiate with you in gauge faith when harry reid and others are bashing them on social security. >> fair question. >> it's a fair question but mark i say it this way, including social security makes it increasingly difficult to bring the 06 votes me need together,
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particularly in the senate democratic caucus. there's a feeling for a long time, they want to push towards privatizing social security, things we don't agree with. it is difficult within the room, with the six senator sitting down to get around social security. >> why, though? we are not talking about massive changes to social security, are we not? why can't we say the word? >> it's hard. it's politically explosive. >> what mark brings up -- all right, mark wants back in. i was going to do it, mark. >> you say on the one hand it's hard to get the votes if you include social security but you all have gone into the mat as did the bowles simpson commission, social security has to be included. you can't do it without social security. so, again, what do you say to republicans and senator reed to possibly bring them together? they're willing to take a risk but how can they be expected to when leaders in your party are playing the same card you've played for many election cycles saying don't touch our social security. >> making it a filthy word to
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even bring it up. >> i can tell you this, when we sit in the room with the six of us, democratic side of the table, particularly from my chair, talks about how tough it is to deal with social security and the democratic caucus. on the republican side of the table, they don't talk about harry reid. they talk about grover norquist who will not let them mention the word revenue. what we have to do is try to bridge the differences and difficulties. i think we can do it. we have 64 senators, 32 democrats and 32 republicans send us a letter say keep at it, work with the president, get this done. i haven't given up. >> it is harder than it looks. >> probable lit largest single item on the budge set defense. that's been going up, up and up. what do we need 50,000 troops in germany for on the west side of the berlin wall that doesn't exist? what do you need 28,000 troops in south korea for when south korea has 0 ti40 times the econ
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and is twice the size. what about cutting the forces overseas and bringing them home to the united states. >> i support it. i support it. so did bowles simpson. the difficulty with the approach, they took it all out of discretionary spending. they didn't look at the defense we're still looking at that little piece of the pie, the one that really shouldn't be cut. >> you're making my argument. if we are going to try to balance the budget out of education and research, it's a joke. it's for braggi inging rights. we have to take a look at medicare. unless we bring down the cost of health care in this country there will nobody serious undertaking when it comes to the budget deficit. >> what happens if you bring up defense, medicare, you bring up social security, ha happens in the room there? >> i can tell you what happens in our room, four of the six us have been through this conversation and voted for
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bowles simpson. we understand it. once you sit there for ten months listening to this and understand we borrow 40 cents for every dollar we spend in this country, you say it's unsustainable. at some point the bond dealers will decide the future of america. we better step in before that happens. >> well, i guess the question -- another question on the this on the fiscal front, senator, is the question of revenue. right? ic oi think one of the things that bowles simpson said that we can't keep the relative cap on revenue relative to the size of the economy. that's a lot of that they don't want to talk about either. are you guys are the democrats even comfortable talking about opening up a conversation on revenue. i know republicans don't want to do that but democrats aren't exactly champing at the bit to have that conversation, as far as i can see, either. >> this is called tax expenditures or the tax code, deductions, tax earmarks. it costs us $1.1 trillion a year
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for that tax code. 70% of americans don't itemize. 30% of americans are getting $1.1 trillion in tax breaks. what would happen if you took a rtn tt dditeto decideuconoo t st to reduce income tax rates, it could go down substantially. >> contributions and taxing them. >> you could certainly restructure those and not give up on them. saving money to reduce income tax, pat, you've got to be for that. >> what about the mortgage interest? >> second largest item. we want to maintain this because we need help in real estate market but there are accesses here. this has been off limits. >> cap the mortgage interest deductions, one idea. >> there you go, pat. >> senator durbin, thank you very much. good to have you in studio. >> thanks a lot. >> we'll be right back. ♪ birds flying high
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what's your policy?
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of course we wanted to get the white house view on libya, however, they chose to offer secretary of state clinton and defense secretary gates to abc, cbc and nbc but not to fox. despite the fact we routinely have more viewer than two of
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those sunday shows the obama team felt no need to explain to the millions of you who watch this program and fox news why they have sent u.s. servicemen and women into combat. we thought you would like to know. >> chris wallace filing an on-air complaint yesterday. >> what was the complaint? >> secretaries gates and clinton refused to come on fox news sunday while doing all the other sunday shows. >> the combat part i don't get. >> sending men and women into combat. >> yeah. is that afghanistan he's talking about? >> he's talking about libya, afghanistan. >> explain it to the fox viewers, not just the other networks. >> gotcha. >> we'll do a quick vcu story here in the cooler. >> good. >> cinderella story of this urn tournament. they were coming into the tournament, one of what we call the first four, meaning they have one of four teams whoed that to play a play-in game just to get into the tournament. from m. prominent commentators were loud in their criticism of
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the committee for letting vcu in the tournament. yesterday they beat kansas and beat them handedly. up 14 at the half. kansas with ohio state out, thought to be the tournament favorite. vcu bounced them. now vcu moves to the final four on saturday to play butler, the team who came swn a half court shot of being the champs last year. that coach right there, 33 years old, mika, one of the rising stars in the game. good for vcu. >> george mason made it into the final four. >> one of only three 11 seeds now with vcu. >> how many? >> imagine. >> a week from now. >> the stack is going to be tis hi. >> ty' stte rey. okt ts. il ahd, dillon ratigan. >> are you siriuerious? i'm good about washing my face.
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our vital interest as a country? >> no, i don't think it's vital interest for the united states, but we clearly have interest there and it's a part of the region, which is a vital interest for the united states. >> i think a lot of people would hear that and say, well, that's quite striking, not in our vital interest and yet we're committing military resources. >> it wouldn't be fair as to what bob just said. did libya attack us? no. what they are doing and gadhafi's history and the potential for disruption and instability was very much in our
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interest, as bob said, and seen by our european friends and our arab partners as very vital to their interests. >> good morning, it's 8:00 on the east coast. as question we take a live look over manhattan. welcome to "morning joe." back with us onset this morning, mark halperin, john and pat buchanan and, of course, willie geist. president obama will address the nation tonight to explain what role the u.s. will play in the mission in libya and now that nato has stepped in. ahead of the speech, hillary clinton and robert gates, as you heard, made the rounds on the sunday talk shows speaking on "meet the press," gates may have added to the confusion about the libyan objective saying that u.s. involvement in the country is not a vital national interest. take a listen. >> we see our commitment of resources actually beginning to decline. >> how long will the fly zone last. >> first of ail, nobody knows the answer to that question.
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once the air defense has been suppressed what it takes to sustain the no-fly zone is substantially also than what it takes to accomplish it. >> secretary clinton pushed back against allegations that the president violated the constitution by failing to seek congressional approval for the interventi intervention. >> this was an international effort that the united states was a part of. i certainly believe it was within the president's constitutional authority to do so. if you look at the region, can you imagine, david, if we were sitting here and gadhafi had gotten there, hundreds of thousands had fled over the border, destabilizing egypt, everybody would be saying why didn't the president do something? >> also on "meet the press" senior republican on the senate foreign relations committee pressed the white house for more detail on the u.s. involvement. >> i think there should have been a plan for what our objectives were, a debate as to
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why this was in our vital interest before we committed military forces to libya. it makes no sense sort of in the front room where in congress, so we are debatie ining seemingly day, the deficits, the debt ceiling situation coming up, the huge economic problems we have. but in the back room we are spending money on a military situation in libya. >> all right. msnbc will have live coverage of the president's address to the nation tonight. that's beginning at 7:30 eastern time right here on msnbc. let's talk about this. >> so, pat, nato is going to take over the mission. that's what we're told, anyway. >> right. >> it looks like gadhafi's forces are being driven back thanks to the u.n. air strikes. isn't this playing out the way the president said it would? >> it's rolling very fast. they picked up three towns over the weekend. including the hometown of gadhafi. if the libyan forces collapse, the rebel army hasn't done this,
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the u.s. air force is doing the job. who goes in as on pags army and forces in libya because we're not going to do it ourselves. the italians and germans can't because of bad history in world war ii. you're down to the british and french. >> the president said a matter of days not weeks. >> the way it's rolling right now it looks like it's going to be a matter of days. depends on what happens in tripoli. >> john? >> i think that sounds right. you know, i think -- a lot of sympathy for what secretary clinton said over the weekend on "meet the press" in terms of a broader debate. the president has moved and it's hard for them to say what they believe, which is this is largely a humanitarian effort. that's the distinction they want to make. that's whether where you get into this problem of vital interest versus nonvital interest. pat does raise a relevant question, what then happens? you can achieve military success quickly but the longer-term questions about what does gadhafi go or stay in if gadhafi stays what are the implications
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there. if gadhafi goes, what are the implications there? the longer-term questions even if they win a quick military victory. >> a promise of no u.s. troops on the ground in libya. . in terms of what we're going to hear from the president tonight and can he achieve the number one objective, which would be to explain this, longer potentiall than first, this always happens, never perfect. but what does he need to do? what does he need to accomplish tonight in his address to the nation? >> this president like president bush finds it humorous and also frustrate that the press wants instant results. you start this campaign -- >> not just press. lugar wants a plan, objectives. >> congress and the immediaty will always want presidents to act instantly and get instant results. this has been quick and worked
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pretty much the way they thought it would. tonight he needs to explain to the country why he did this, what is the obama doctrine or at least the part that explains this intervention. and update people in a way that seems authority tativeuthoritat. the u.s. is not in charge of this. it's a coalition. but he needs to seem like the commander in chief who is using the military in a thoughtful and purposeful way. >> that would be part of the obama doctrine. willie? >> the only argument they got on this interest intervention because it isn't vital in the united states, if it were, we would not let gadhafi run it for 40 years. this is what hillary clinton is emphasizing. there is no answer to the question of why didn't you consult congress when you consulted the african union, the arab league and the ten members of the security council but not the five big ones. i think these got an answer to that. the key open question is, inga daffy's got to go now. when he goes who is going to run that place because the rebels
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did not win this war and the rebels also have al qaeda elements clearly within them. so he's got some -- he's got some problems. he looks like he's frankly winning the war, which is not a bad position to be? >> if he wins the war i do think the question of whether he's consulting con is not -- this is a p congress complains and in the end the public doesn't really care about that if things go well. >> right. >> if things go well militarily the president will say, look, we had to move quickly, this is what we needed to do. i needed to go ahead and now we're going to go through the process of bringing congress along. >> let's talk about the setting. last week the white house went out of its way to say we're not going to give an address to the oval office. the setting tonight, national defense university, what do you make of that? >> i think what that says in effect is that, look, this is not an american war. this is a problem we're dealing with militarily.
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but i think he's really been forced to respond because of what we know -- the first strike in desert storm and the first strike in the second war against iraq, both bushes went to 90% when the cruise missiles hit and all of us who opposed it, we were out. this time the opposition has a lot of support with the american people who are saying what in the devil is going on here and now you've got a very serious problem going on in syria. >> yeah. >> so -- which is much her critical because of the relationship iraq, israel and all the rest. >> let's go there because in other news around the middle east the syrian government has deployed security forces to a key northern city after a weekend of violent protests left at least 12 people dead and more than 150 wounded. that's in response to more than a week of demonstration which have brought anarchy to one of the middle east's tightly controlled countries. speaking on fox news joe lieberman said he would back u.s. action in syria.
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>> if asad does what gadhafi was doing, which is to threaten the house to house and kill anybody who is not on his side, there's a precedent now that the world community has set in libya and it's the right one. we're not going to stand by and allow thises asad to slaughter people the way his father did years ago. >> he is lifting nearly 50-year state of emergency and moving to annul other harsh restrictions on civil liberties. meanwhile, yemen's president is taking back his offer to step down by the end of the year. okay. i see that he's getting the message. what? that move comes as islamic militants are taking advantage of deteriorating security by seizing control of towns in the southern part of the country. protesters have been calling for the president's immediate ouster there and have been joined by defecting military commanders, politicians and tribal leaders.
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>> mark, go back to joe lieberman for a second. if you take away the fact that it's joe lieberman, but his point, okay, libya, let's say libya works out the way we -- the president said it would. does that not now mean that you have to go into syria for the same humanitarian reasons? >> no, the same humanitarian reasons don't exist. >> slaughter people in the streets? >> slaughter tens of thousand which is what the administration is confident would have happened if gadhafi -- >> what's the number when you have to go in? >> you know it when you see it. look, the conditions that existed for libya don't exist in syria or anywhere else. assad is unpopular in some places but you're not going to that the world community is setting a precedent in libya, well, let's go back, pat, then to speaker boehner's question, what is the benchmark for success in libya? when is it done? what are we trying to do?
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>> look, we're not going to put troops on the ground. >> of course. what is that we're trying to accomplish. >> we're done when gadhafi's regime collapses. the problem is rebels haven't won the war and the rebels got a lot of al qaeda elements. who is going to run libya? it's a country of 6 million people. i think you're going to have to put troop s on the ground. the british and french couldn't handle it in bosnia. the americans had to come in. i think we've got a problem on our hands here. >> but there is a bigger question, i think which is the question you're trying to get to, both of you guys. there is a lack of clarity, i think, right now about what the administration's policy towards the broader uprisings in the middle east is and how they're going to handle that. they have had to, because this happened so quickly they've been making policy on the fly from egy egypt, then to libya. one of the things the president may or may not do tonight but the people do want to know is what is our stance towards the broader democratic revolutions that look like they could be
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happening across the region, how are we going to distinguish from country to country, not just in terms of military intervention but prioritize, where do we get involved, to what extent do we get involved. these questions are not going to go away over the course of -- >> this is a reasonable amount of time though, mark, given the fact this president, many criticized him for waiting too long clearly tried to negotiate, clearly tried to warn libyan leaders, gadhafi and all, that this was going to be a problem if he didn't step down. they waited it out. some say waited too long. and then finally moved in. you talk about making decisions on the fly, i actually think that compared to other presidents this was -- this was waited out to an extent that actually now has drawn criticism from republicans. >> i think if you nick-pick, in general they've been extremely deaf in a tough situation.
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>> consistent with what this president said he was going to do. >> pro democracy. anti-violence. anti-u.s. unilateral intervention. part of his problem is to be a multi lateralist at a time when a lot of americans want america to be number one and america to lead. he doesn't what to do that. >> i think he is, some could argue, he is leading but the criticism is that we're not doing it alone. do we really want to do that? do we want another afghanistan, bat pat buchanan? >> he is right, anyone who wants another afghanistan ought to have his head examined. he stayed with mubarak. he was alive for 30 years and then had to go and he has moved against libya because gadhafi is a thug and everybody despieces him. yemen, we haven't done that well. bahrain, we support the saudis going in there. it's too vital because it affects a part of saudi arabia. overall he's riding this rolling
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wave in and he's not doing -- i do think he's made a mistake by getting into this libya mess. they've got no vital interest there. who knows whether there -- there were no massacres in these other towns he took. now 70, 100,000 people are going to be killed? >> u.s. policy has to re-enforce stability. we can't just let things spiral out of control in the region. there's a lot of instability caused by the nato action. the administration's view is there would have been more instability had there not been any intervention because there would have been mass slaughter. this is a way to keep things from being humanitarian crisis but also from spiraling out of control. >> and had he got international support collective action which is very different. that would be leading. >> without china, without russia, all the five biggest countries. we have 5% of the world behind us. >> i'm so sorry. >> against us. >> gadhafi announced he was going to slaughter civilians.
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he may not have. but given the -- then we did nothing, the criticism of the president would have been renowned. >> he got the support of the community, much of it, to go in collectively in a very short period of time. >> why didn't he just send them right across the border and and protected the people there. it would have been all over. no western ers, no americans. >> egyptian military is kind of busy right now. >> 500,000 guys in the egyptian mill tard and they can't take a border town? >> we'll talk about that when wh we come back. and dylan ratigan will be here and andrew comb mow's first 100 days in office. but first, bill karins with a check of the forecast. >> can you believe this weekend? it snowed in st. louis, snow in
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washington, d.c. it continues this morning. we've got areas of snow in kentucky. the windchills are brutal from new york to boston to albany to buffalo to pittsburgh. there's not many areas in the northern half of the country that aren't especially cold for this time of year. look at chicago, waking up with a windchill of 13. even atlanta has a windchill of 39. that's uncalled for. severe weather this morning. travel trouble spot. it's been south of tampa to sarasota. now shifting down to naples. west palm beach. get ready for thunderstorms this afternoon. eventually work its way down to miami. the rest of the country, the west coast, finally a decent say fr phoenix to l.a. just thunderstorms in the southeast and the cold temperatures continue for much of this week from the northern half of the nation. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ sneezes ] allergies?
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you think i have allergies? you're sneezing. i'm allergic to you. doubtful, you love me. hey, you can't take allegra with fruit juice. what? yeah, it's on the label. really? here, there's nothing about juice on the zyrtec® label. what? labels are meant to be read. i'd be lost without you. i knew you weren't allergic to me. [ sneezes ] you know, you can't take allegra with orange juice. both: really? fyi. [ male announcer ] get zyrtec®'s proven allergy relief and love the air®. premier of the packed bag. you know when to hold 'em... and how to fold 'em. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above and still pay the mid-size price. here we are... [ male announcer ] and there you go, business pro.
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21 past p the hour. joining us now, the host of msnbc's the "dylan ratigan" show. dylan ratigan. i love this steel on wheels energy summit. you're going to be hosting that with one of our most favorite people among others. >> which would be who? >> whom. >> yes. >> i like it. i like the focus of this because it kind of pairs down the problem to one area and ultimately to how our future can be determined and changed in terms of this country. it's foreign policy and energy
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policy. >> i'm glad you see that it way. you look at all the problems in this country. we talk health care, banking, trade, deficits, whatever. to me the one that appears to be the moste conversation, the democrats seem to have an appetite for it. it kills multiple birds with one stone. you create a ton of jobs, internalize a ton of cash and solve the security problem. now obviously the barrier is oil is really cheap and none of us pay the real price of oil so we'll get into the debate as to how you actually r lly create t pressure. >> you've been doing a great job every day at 4:00. what about nuclear power? where are we right now? >> the interesting thing that i've noticed that there's been a perk lags of all these alternate nuclear power structures. i don't mean in terms of whether it's on a fault line or not.
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instead of having the big uranium rods, they do these things the size of of a softball and put pellets of uranium inside of them. they scatter, not like all over the country land, just not as close to each other. they don't get as hot. other radio active materials. the problem with something like nuclear and a couple of there power sources is they intend to be encredibly, incredibly, incredibly safe until they're really not. as opposed to things like coal and other traditional sources where people die on a regular basis. not to diminish that at all but the danger is on the inside, that doesn't happen with things like nuclear but then on the outside we know what's possible. >> isn't chinese heavy into the pebble beds. >> yes. and the chinese also by all reports are working hard on also the reactors and some of the other less radioactive but similarly power generated.
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>> one question, everybody says we've got to get off middle east oil. when gadhafi was running libya and saddam hussein was running iraq and the ayatollah was running iran, all three of them, they've got to sell the oil. they can't drink it. iran, other than that, what do they export, pistachio nuts, carpets, and what? the little fish in the -- >> i totally agree with you. let's look realistically, dicta they've got to sell the oil, that's all they've got over there. what are they going to do with it if they don't sell it. >> no, i completely agree with you. however, if you look at the amount of money that america has and is spending on military missions in the middle east, which by my view would not be spent, i'm not the only one who thinks that, if we weren't involved in getting oil from that part of the world, we -- it
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wouldn't be our problem at the very least. in other words, those governments in my view are corrupt the way that they are because it is a natural resource based economy, where instead of john going out and working and pat bu nan nan, et cetera, et cetera, checks arrive because we're selling oil no different than a version of what we get in alaska in this country on a much bigger scale. it is the opportunity for a government that then buys guns and weapons from us and other people to oppress its people if you could perpetuate it, pat, i could see it. >> go ahead, pat. >> keep the persian gulf open. they've got to sell it or they all go broke and their overthrown. $150 a barrel for oil. all your other forms of energy come on stream because they become much more, you know, economic. >> exactly. >> so why worry -- all this worry about this problem. we've had wars over there. the oil keeps coming out as long as you keep the straits open. >> the two things that strike me that i would reput to that is
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the cost of the war and the cost to the military and maintaining security there in this country i think has become at the very least tiresome if not an out right draft. and half of our trade deficit, 50% of america's trade deficit is china. the other half is energy. and so if we can figure out a way to internalize some of that so we stop shipping money like basically taking money from my wallet and john's wallet and your wallet and shipping it to saudi arabia or china, why would we not do that when we create work here and we can create security here and we can ultimately create prosperity here without so much of this middle east military. who wants to do it, pat? >> i think we ought to get at it. >> i was going to say, distor distorts -- we've been talking this morning about had the obama administration or any administration looks at the middle east, so it distorts our foreign policy priorities because we're looking at giving countries, the one we get the most oil from we have a
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different attitude towards. >> exactly. >> if we weren't as reliant on that oil in general we could make priorities on the strategic interest and not on the flow of crude. >> you can argue the real cost of oil, i wouldn't suggest we make a leap like this today or tomorrow or the next day but we should move to a more price for energy in general but a real cost of the gallon of gasoline is, you know, $12, $15 a gallon if you embedded the cost of a military budget that we have to deploy to secure the transfer of that oil and in other words -- so at the very least, if you want to get the oil from the middle east, charge the user, charge john, charge mika when she fills her tank for the cost of the military operation to supreme court that oil. it will change your decision making. all of a sudden she's -- >> pat. >> secure the oil. saddam hussein stole the oil in kuwait to set it to pay off his debts. why didn't we go to war and reverse it? why didn't we go to war with
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saddam hussein about oil when he's selling it. he needs the money. he's desperate. >> i know. >> what are we doing with all that military in there other than to keep the straits open. the navy has to do that. but the rest of it -- >> you're making my point. let us stop with this 30 years of nonsense, if not longer, as a generational opportunity, as a geopolitical opportunity, as a technological opportunity and as an economic opportunity. that's why again -- i think that's why we're able to get so many people, the head of the sierra club, these types of people in the same room with bo boone pickens and on and on and on and so we have woolsey in the room. we should have you in the room as well. your point of view is very valuable. >> sorvel the chinese problem.
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>> yes. >> 25% tariff on all chinese goods coming into the country, take the $200 billion and eliminate taxes on amican manufacturers. >> i will see your chinese tariff and i will raise you a tax break for overseas profits, get the trillions that are held offshore back into our country on the condition that they are used for infrastructure bonds. convince cater filler and cisco. did you see "60 minutes" -- >> incredible piece. >> there's a way to get money back into america, whether it's chinese money, energy money, whether it's tax code money. and we as a group need to figure out how to do this so we can have jobs. >> it's been figured out. hamilton and clay and lincoln and mckinley, all of them, united states became totally self sufficient, produced everything we consumed until was went to this worldwide free market nonsense. >> free market, in other words, because a market is only good --
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it's not even free trade. you don't have reciprocity on china. >> unilaterally. >> a market is only as good as the intregrity of the price. if i manipulate the price of oil, keeping it cheap, keeping the war off balance sheet, the market can never behave the way that it should because of that unholy alliance. >> excuse me, using oil import fee on your oil to save $25. >> charge you. >> other things come online. economic. >> one of the things we miss in american politics is on out front spokesman for protectionism. >> pat, pat, hold on. >> in other words, we are being openly -- sorry. go ahead. >> it's okay. you're such a good boy. pat, i'm going to keep him. we will continue to break. >> this is the conversation. >> it is. >> is money coming into our country?
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>> exactly. >> that's it. >> let's deal -- >> steel on wheels starts on wednesday in oklahoma. we're at osu for a couple of days. vote vets and former cia director james woolsey live at a truck stop for two days with that town hall on thursday evening. >> it's going to be important. >> we figured, libya, japan, we're on the road anyway. let us go do the issue at hand that cannot only create jobs but create security. >> stay here. >> i want to point one thing out. i buy only american pistachios. >> good for you for point that out. >> because the iranian ones are banned. tomorrow, we have tom brokaw, presidential hopeful tim pa pawlenty.
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welcome back to kt morn "morning joe." the u.s. supreme court will begin hearing arguments tomorrow in the largest job discrimination in american case. more than a million women claim
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walmart discriminated against them in pay and promotions. >> reporter: for 25 years christine has worked at a northern california sam's club owned by walmart. she says she once asked why a male co-worker got a big raise and she didn't. >> i was told that he had a family to support, and at that time i also had a family to support. i'm a single mom of two. they were much smaller at that time but i still had to feed them and clothe them and everything else. >> reporter: she and other women current and former walmart employees, are suing claiming that company gives better pay and bigger promotions to the male xwhemployees. their class action lawsuit now potentially covers more than 1.5 million women. walmart denies that it tolerates any sex discrimination. >> out in the stores, in the field, even in the home office, you get paid based on your performance. 80% of our department manager workforce are made up of women.
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and department managers play a very important role in our organization. >> reporter: and the company says the lawsuit is so massive it's impossible to sort out the legal claims in any fairway. >> it's not just the size of the class. it's the nature of the claims here that the plaintiffs try to put every single claim into one big class, every person, every state, every store. >> reporter: but the lawyer for christine and the other women says they would never get into court if they had to sue for back pay one by one. >> the average loss per woman in this case is about $1100 per woman per year. that's not enough to attract any lawyer in thi country today. >> reporter: for "morning joe," i'm pete williams. >> wow. let's get a check on business with erin burnette live at the new york stock exchange. >> good morning, mika. anybody who wants to learn more about this sort of issue and potential discrimination at all levels should buy a book coming
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out on may 3rd called "knowing your value" by one mika brzezinski. >> i look at the women at the top and what wour role is in that. erin, thanks for that. what do you have cooking this morning. >> in all seriousness, it is available on amazon. >> shameless. amazon.com. >> yes, amazon.com. all right. so a couple of stories today. one, the big gossip item on wall street. there's two gossip item 'the less sexy one is about quantitative easing but this one is really important. fed governors over the weekend talking -- fed governor saying that it's possible we could decide to finish the program or stop a little bit short. it's stop a little bit short that's getting a lot of talk. $600 billion the fed has been buying in the treasury market. they're supposed to end in june. they f. they stop early, good sign for the economy they believe it's self sustaining.
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that's the gossip on wall street. the second item is going to be thanks to andrew, i know you all have talked a little bit about this. robert gibbs potentially considering an offer to take millions of dollars to work at facebook. >> wow. yep. >> i mean, it's pretty amazing when you -- everyone is talking about will we have any kind of a bubble in silicon valley right now. we have a little chart we made that i thought you guys would find interesting about fake facebook's valuation. it's not a public company, right? this valuation is all made up by, i don't know, goldman sachs taking a stake. look at this, from september 2006 it was worth a billion dollars. now worth $65 billion. according to private investments. and from november to february that valuation went up 86%. i don't know if that's right you not. >> the question, i guess, gibbs is facing is whether or not to take the money. take the money. >> tough question sx. >> is he going to take the money? >> i think he should take a cue from arianna and take the cash.
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>> yeah, you take stock and it's overvalued. >> erin, we could both agree, whatever it's worth, it's more than $65 billion or less than $65 billion but it's not $65 billion. >> and it's more than he would get to run the re-election campaign. we can say that. we're going to be talking about these things. go order mika's book. >> thank you very much. up next, governor andrew cuo cuomo's deal. next on "morning joe."
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the state passed a yud at the time. you would say, well, that's no big deal, except it is. it is a big deal when this state passes a budget on time.
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it's an exceptionally big deal when the state passes the budget on time under these circumstances, because this was a very, very hard budget to do. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 44 past the hour. here with us from "new york" magazine, chris smith who wrote about andrew cuomo in the latest issue. big news, cuomo is in the news in the past hours really passing the budget. in your article you call him "the gamer." how is he the gamer in terms of nailing the budget deal, and early, i might add. >> i early and he only took office in january. one of the beauties of andrew cuomo is he's working the angles even long he's officially on the field. you know, he started this process essentially last year when he was still state attorney general. had something of a dry run with david patterson as governor using some of these techniques to force a deal.
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and he played it really smart. andrew brought in a lot of the special interests in new york, the hospital health care workers union and the medicaid teams to get it done, sort of around the table at the same time. >> is he following chris christie's lead? and how closely? how closely? >> he's not following his lead. his trying to actually sort of be the opposite of christi and walker and develop a democratic big "d" way of bringing everybody in instead of just banging heads and con fronting it. you know, in some ways it's a bit of slight of hand because h de nr an even worse deal april 1st. >> chris, this guy, you've covered him for a long time.
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he's shown since he left from this office marks chturity, pat a soft touch. how did he transform himself to be someone very different in public that he was for so long? >> you see it sometimes in sports, politics, the good ones learn as they grow. and you know, andrew cuomo's been in this new york political game since he was 20 years old essentially running his father's first campaign for governor. had a humiliating defeat in mid '90s where he tried to come back from hud, from washington, and didn't even make it out of the new york state democratic primary for governor and really spent some of the time figuring out why people disliked him. he was too overtly manipulative. he still, you know, plenty calculating, but he's doing it much better behind the scenes. and this budget process where he made a big show of bringing everybody together early on
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takes some of the edge off him and is proven to be effective. >> manipulative, are those qualities nonexistent now or perhaps were they useful? >> exactly. and in some ways it's a compliment. it's effectively manipulative in the sense that he took what could have been a $10 billion deficit in new york state where just a year ago, we were dragging into august with legislators and the governor unable to come to an agreement. and you look in the context, wisconsin has democratic senators fleeing the state. we didn't have that here. >> this new budget cuts medicaid, cuts education by $1.25 billion. is this the democrat andrew cuomo who had supporters and voters thought they were sending to albany? >> good question. his reputation and career to this point, a good deal more progressive, a good deal more traditionally democratic. he had tacked to the middle and
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certainly oning for the office. he's done essentially in this budget what he said he was going to do for the past year, no new taxes, trimming government spending, trimming the size of government. so while it's somewhat of a surprise to people who have known him for launching housing for the homeless programs, it's very much who he's been for the past year, year and a half. >> the cuts to education though are painful. >> no question. >> painful. >> you know, he's had some trouble with mayor bloomberg throughout this process. the mayor is complaining loud that this is still going to force layoffs of city teachers. we'll see about that. >> how does it not? i mean, these are school systems that have endured cuts already, that are still trying to survive what they had to put up with last year. i mean, again, i mentioned it earlier, but the ""new york times"" had an editorial, just sort of laying out how the different systems will have to bear the brunt of these cuts. and by the way, poorer school
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systems, somehow fairing worse. >> no question. both literally and the dollars are a bigger percentage of their budget and their ability to make it up through fund-raising from parents and neighborhoods. yes. >> the poorer towns, they're not going to have that. >> exactly right. no, they don't have the resources. it's going to be a regressive budget in a lot of senses. >> what stands between andrew cuomo and the white house? >> five years, you know? as we know, things can change pretty quickly. one of his freiends said to me, you know, it's very hard in 2011 to run for president in 2016. he certainly has helped his chances, you know, through this process. but he owns this budget in a way that previous governors have not. if there isn't an economic recovery nationally in the next year, if homelessness and schools really are -- >> that's the gamble. >> yeah. then it's going to come back to bite him. >> does he have anything specific to housing or
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unemployment which is really the two byproducts of the financial crisis for a man who was a new york attorney general and new york governor and who has been remarkably soft on the entire banking system and now apparently wants to cut on education for poor people. >> yeah. i mean, he restored a little bit of money in the past few days. but it's still a major hit. >> it's a big hit. especially as a parent with kids in new york schools and that' what he is, right? tney whhe bainsyne anth ce t d t ucio fopo ppl it ainreinpl. hsa >> there's a difference be businesses taking money and businesses creating value. >> correct. and as details emerge today and throughout the week there are things like a tax break for black rock that could be an enormous give away that are going to chip away, you know, at his image if those things are
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still in there. you know, he's counting on the economy improving and that stuff becoming less important. >> chris smith, thank you, your article if the new issue of "new york" magazine. up next, the best of late night.
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people have to take if they want to become a citizen. 38% failed out right. people fail a test. you can wo th
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k tma tsiamweavp new test that i think will be much better for the people. question one, name the king of beers. number two, our government is composed of three branches. name something else that has branches. it can be found both on the berty bell and in whitney houston's purse. finally, what blood type is charlie sheen? all right. ♪ good monday morning to you. your business travel forecast today. travel trouble spot, florida, orlando airport, tampa airport going to be dealing with thunderstorms and heavy rain. in atlanta today we're also going to be watching some
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showers and storms, especially the first half of the day. cold and chilly through the northern half of the country. only a few shower on the west coast. have a great day. lord of the carry-on. sovereign of the security line. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i deserve this. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro. we're with you when you're saving for your dreams. [ woman ] when you want a bank that travels with you. with you when you're ready for the next move. [ male announcer ] now that wells fargo and wachovia have come together, what's in it for you? unprecedented strength, the stability of the leading community bank in the nation and with 12,000 atms and thousands of branches, we're with you in more ways and places than ever before.
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our thanks to politico for the reminder that it's my dad's birthday. happy birthday, dad! time now to talk about what we learned today, beyond that. willie, what did you learn? >> i take my time to thank wendy and russ who gave me a lift into work today after i was involved in a car accident on the way in. certainly hope the guy in the other car was okay. >> thank. >> thank you. >> that's too bad. horrible. hey, by the way, things to lenny in the er. no, not lenny, vinnie in the er from yonkers, new york, for helping my daugher with her ankle yesterday. you had lenny, i had vinnie. >> i suffered no such